(upbeat music) - The Air Force has announced the creation of a new information operations technical training school. - (mumbles) simply must arm our airmen to outthink, outperform, out partner, out innovate any potential adversary. - Air Force basic military training has an updated curriculum with a new focus on readiness and lethality. - The first command, "The Air Force Starts Here." - Welcome to "The Air Force Starts Here" podcast. I'm your host for this professional development podcast. Captain Kayshel Trudell from the AETC Public Affairs Team. As you know, this podcast is dedicated to bringing "Total Force Big A Airmen." Tips, tricks, and lessons learned from the recruiting, training, and education worlds. In this episode we celebrate Women's History Month. During a conversation with 4 of the 10 women who first completed Air Force Undergraduate Pilot Training in 1977. These trailblazers broke barriers. Laying the foundation for all future female airmen. Retired colonel Kathleen Cosand. And retired Lieutenant colonels, Mary Donahue, Sandra Scott and Mary Livingston. Reminisced on their experiences at Randolph during UPT Class 77-08. From August, 1976 to September of 1977. And the careers that they forged thereafter. They discussed challenges, roadblocks, successes. And the women who inspire them today. These women left their marks on the pages of history. And open doors for female pilots and airmen for generations to come. Don't miss their stories and the wisdom they share on the importance of determination, mentorship and wingmanship. During this Women's History Month episode of the "Air Force Starts Here" podcast. (upbeat music) - All right. Well, welcome everybody. We're so excited to have you here at "The Air Force Starts Here" podcast. This episode is really exciting. It's Women's History Month, 2021. What better way to honor some of the most incredible women in the military and our Air Force. Who kind of started the legacy for what it is to be a female airman, and a female pilot. And so we've got some amazing women on the call today. From the first ever undergraduate pilot training class. But we've got Mary Livingston out there in Indiana. We've got Mary Donahue, who's in Cape Cod right now. Kathy Cosand in Napa, California. And Sandy Scott who's in Oregon. How are you ladies doing well? - Well. - Very well, thank you. - Well, thank you so much for taking the time to have this conversation. And just tell a little bit about what your experiences were, all those years ago through now, your entire careers. What does it mean to you guys when you're there in the moment. And, you're being told you're gonna be the first. And you're gonna do something historic. But, you're just doing something you're passionate about at the time. And now all these years later. We're celebrating you and the legacy that you brought. How does that make you feel then and now? - At the March 5th National Museum of the Air Force Dedication Ceremony. That really was quite an amazing experience. In that I'm sure that that adjective is going to be overused today. But got to a chance to meet Samantha Weeks who was the Thunderbird Pilot. And various other aspects of her military career. And she was admiring me as I was admiring her. Because, she carried on with excellence, professionalism, and she was exactly the type of person I would have wanted to be in a future Air Force rather than being a trailblazer. I think each of us could say that we would have loved to have had some of the opportunities of the women that they have today. And it's just as mind-boggling to think that we started that first step. - That's truly incredible. You're totally right. Just me sitting here right now. Looking up to you guys. And seeing that, because of the barriers you broke. There's all these incredible women serving right next to me that I get to see as, right now we're at about 21% of the military active duty Air Force is female. And definitely wasn't the time for you guys. So what did that look like? The male dominance that exist now is definitely way different than it was for your time. So being in that class together, how was that? - I think we took it on as a test group. And there were actually 10 of us ladies in the class. 9 active duty. And I was the lone reservist. And then the second class of women came about six months later. And there were 9 again, active duty. And one Air National Guard lady (mumbles). I think that we took it all kind of in stride. First, we came together in the flight screening program down in Hondo. And we had to go through a lot of extra tests that the guys didn't normally have to go through. And I think they were building a database on what we were capable of doing some of the things that they do now with, your hand-eye coordination tests. And that kind of thing. And I think we just, we all just wanted to be there. I don't think any of us really wanted, cared that it was the first class. We just all wanted to do our passion. And we were given the opportunity to follow that dream. And we just wanted to get through it. - This is Sandy And I agree with Kathy. I wasn't there to be in the first. In fact, I didn't even think about that. There'd been plenty of pilots. And so this woman first thing. Is something that came a lot, lot later yet. Yeah, they did say some things about it while we were at UPT. We went through the photo shoots and all of that. But it was still, we were doing a job. And it was a job that was being done by many people. And, I was just glad that I was able to have the opportunity to do that job. - Yeah. I don't think we thought about being first. And I think they did a good job. At having just one photo day. And saying after that, there'd be no more. So they wasn't pressure that way. But I think the pressure that happened was internal pressure. I don't think any one of us wanted to fail because if that were the case. They would use that as an excuse, not to let others do it. That was pressure that was put on by ourselves. No one put that on us. But I think all of us sort of felt that. That we had to make it. Because if we didn't make it. They would use that as a decision to not let anyone else ever try it again. - And I would have to say, this is Mary Livingston. That, that is the reason though we didn't want to be necessarily in the first class. It was very, very ever present in our minds. Because as Mary Donahue said. If we failed, that would be a reflection on the other women on our class. And also women that may want to follow on our footsteps. So granted, we didn't look at ourselves as trailblazers so much. Is that we just wanted to do well for the women that followed us. - And in some of the stuff I was looking at in the stories and the different sets of heritage that's being brought up lately with the trailblazer dedication and the education and training command's headquarters conference room. Which I know, I believe two of you were there for. And then again, with the exhibit. I saw that someone commented that, there were instructor pilots that were openly against what was going on. So how did that fuel that as well? - Instructor pilots who were assigned to me, I was assigned to them. I guess that's a better way of looking at it. I didn't have any issue with that. But I flew with a couple once in a while. You fly with other instructors that was sort of like that. And I know there was a lot of discussion by the T-38 instructors saying, "Well maybe they're just gonna stop them after T-37." Because obviously they can fly the slower plane. But we can't let them fly jets. So it's sort of was ongoing. But myself personally I had excellent instructors. And none of my instructors came across that way to me at all. - This is Kathy Cosand. I agree with Mary Donahue. I kind of knew that maybe, there was some talk. But I didn't experience that with the instructors that I flew with. But I remember hearing some of the discussions like what Mary Donahue stated. But I didn't have that experience. - This is Sandy. And neither did I. And I'd probably have to say I was probably naive enough. By that time I'd already been in the Air Force three years. And I had to learn to just kinda overlook a lot of things. Because that was the only way that you survived. You just decided that you're not gonna focus on it. "Oh, I'm not getting my chance." "I'm not getting to do this." Or, "I'm being put over here." "And I'm being looked at this way." I had chosen to not look at a lot of those things. So I'm very aware that I was probably just naive in that sense. But I think the instructors that I had they were very encouraging. Some of them, I would even say they were honored to get to fly with us. Cause they went, "Wow." And we get compared to their wives. I know that my instructor, in a good way. He'd say, "My wife says she wants to do this." "Maybe I ought let her try this." Things like that, that I saw as very encouraging. And, definitely supportive. - When you first get a student. You do focus on what you might consider be external attributes of that student. But when you start flying with that student. You start concentrating on their abilities. And for them to exceed and to excel. Because that reflects on you as an instructor. So just like the other women here. My instructors were excellent. And my T-38 instructor just recently died of COVID. Bruce Ott. And I would just like to, say a little something in honor of him. That he was always proud as Sandy said of flying with that first group of female pilots, and being an instructor. And so , I just wanna honor him for that. - You know, first I went to Columbus Air Force Base in the pre-pilot instructor training program. And in some respects that was more challenging. Because none of them had ever seen a female pilot. And so that was a culture shock for them. And somewhat of a culture shock for me. And, at some point in time. If you and I ever wanna sit down and just relate some humorous stories. That would be it. But as Sandy said. As well as being that first group of women pilots. There was also fear. Because we were women flying in a male dominated area. And some women did feel threatened by that. And so, again I would have to say that my instructors were excellent. And, I didn't particularly want to fly a T-37 auto-pilot training. But I'll tell you what. God knew what I should fly. Because I absolutely love flying. "Mary Donahue that slow jet." "That there's no other aircraft that could spin like that aircraft." - So I know all of you guys, the thing that makes all of us super excited. And the thing that propelled women in the Air Force forward. But not only that you guys were women officers. You were leaders. You were having to deal with that potential side of it as well. Because fine and leadership in the Air Force as an officer, you have your career path. But you also have the leading of troops. And I know you guys had all long successful careers. So were there any points in that had parallel experiences or different experiences than while you were students? - I know that a lot of times when I started flying the 141. It's a large airplane. And, you were subjected or you could be subjected to a lot of no notice check rides. Just because there were flight examiners over in Europe trying to get back to the states. And because I flew a lot of those missions. I had an exorbitant number of no notice check rides. And everybody wanted to see how a woman could handle a big airplane. And it got to the point where the people that I was flying with, in my squadron. They started protecting me. And they'd actually tell the guys, you know what. "She's already had two check rights on this trip." "Why don't you just go sit down." "Sit downstairs and just stay out of her hair." "She's been under enough pressure." And I mean, I had a stack of check Ryzen. All of them were Q1's. No problems or anything like that. And after a while, they started diminishing. Thank goodness. But I was heavily scrutinized more, I think. From people outside of my unit. Then inside my unit. Because they were just, they were curious. And they were naysayers. And hopefully, I was able to change their opinion of that. And they could see that a little girl, 114 pounds at the time, could handle a bigger plane. As long as you learn the techniques. A lot of the techniques to do that. For example. I had a lot of problems getting all four thrust reversers into reverse at the beginning. But, the beauty of that was is that. Nowhere in the landing data, is it required that you have any of the thrust reversers out. So I would always use that as my defense that. "Hey, I don't have to." And I learned, I would take the middle thrust reverser. Put them out. And then I'd work on one and four. Until I actually learned the technique of putting my hand kind of behind me. And then being able to raise up all four of them and then pushing. But it was a learning process. On learning how to develop that technique. Because I was also a smaller frame. I had to sit up higher in the seat. I had to sit forward than a lot of my male counterparts. So that was kind of an interesting thing. So once, some of that stuff got ironed out. A lot of the criticism kind of went down. - A lot of people wanted to see how we were doing once we got into our final assignments. And, you just had to accept it with good cheer. And after a while, I mean people are busy. You're in the Air Force, you know. You've got your mission. And, to take extra time out, on an additional sorority. That's tough. And so really very quickly, it died down. Because we all proved ourselves. - Flying the 135. We didn't get to fly that often. We were sitting alert a lot. So we flew, we were on alert probably about 10 days a month. And then you had the days that you planned. And so a lot of the flying that we got to do was with the accelerated ACE program. Where I got to fly that slow T-37, that I absolutely loved also Mary. And, I got more time in that just about than I did in the 135 for quite a while. But it was just because, so I think it was just proving ourselves in all ways. It wasn't just as pilots. But we had to prove ourselves as officers. And that was a very important aspect that now all of us other than Kathy Cosand. Had basically been in the military before. And, we had various jobs. And so we had some of that behind us. But it was totally different once we got into the cockpit, of course. But I think they were looking at us not only for our flying ability. But also just how we handled, "Is she gonna be an aircraft commander?" "Can we make her an instructor?" Everything was looked at as a new piece that had to be overcome and then accepted. - And you think that in all you guys experience. That was something that did happen. It was overcome and accepted. Or were there various trials that you might've faced? - This is Mary Donahue. Separately I don't think it was that accepted with females. Everyone I flew with initially one of the hottest approaches in a KC-135 is what a power out (mumbles) approach as it takes a lot of foot pressure to hold the aircraft straight. I mean, I can do that approach better than anybody. Cause it was not one person who flew with me who didn't require me to do that approach. Or show them that I couldn't do it. I had a navigator when I was in Stanley Valley. He used to told me one day, "He was crazy." "I am not gonna stand up to you anymore." "I'm sick of it." He says, "I'm in the bar." "And I'm always talking to these people that claim they flown with you and you can't fly." "And I am so sick of having to defend you to everybody." "I'm just not gonna to do it anymore." So, it was just a very strange environment. Cause in SAC you fly with a crew. You don't fly with other people. You fly because you (mumbles) and everything. You always flying with the same crews. So, people really didn't know you. Except that, the people that you flew with. And I just thought SAC was very strange. I loved the mission. Cause it was basically a combat mission. No, I did not like sitting alert at all. But I did get to fly that, a lot of T-38 flying time. And yes, I did fly the T-37 when they took the T-38 away. So I have a lot of T-37 and T- 38 time in me. Accelerated Co-pilot Enrichment Program. And probably I have more hours on there than I have in a tank. - And just to add to that. I was actually a detachment commander at Grissom Air Force Base as an air crew. I was a aircraft enrichment program accelerated. What did they call that? The Accelerated Copilot Enrichment Program. - Yeah. - Strategic Air Command Pilots. And that's how I knew Mary at Grissom. Is because she was stationed as a aircraft commander at that time, Mary? - Yes. - And it was. It was fun flying with the SAC co-pilots. Because, we were able to expand our normal flying much more cross country than what we normally would do in a undergraduate pilot training environment. So that was always a fun break as well. Just letting Sandy, you and Mary know as well. - So during that initial training. I'm assuming you guys got relatively close and leaned on each other a lot. As do a lot of people in UPT. At any stage from, when it first started through today. But from there, how was that friendship, that relationship that fellow student relationship there, and then even how it might've continued, if you guys kept up at all throughout your careers, or first time chatting with each other again now. How has that relationship been on? - Too little. I think if at some point people say, "What would you have changed differently?" I think I know that I would have reached out to the other nine women a lot more. At that time we were all at different bases. And even for the second class and third class there weren't that many of us. So there was like one per base. And we were all handling the issues that we had to handle. And I so wish that we would have kept better in touch. I did get to keep a little bit in touch with Mary Livingston. But more so with Carol. But not a whole lot. And the only reason I was able to keep to Carol is because I got to meet her over in Guam a couple of times. And she was from Oregon. But I certainly wish that we had fostered those friendships more so. I think it would have made our lives easier. Just because as we decided to have families for those of us that did. We went, "Oh yeah, I have that problem." Or this came up. And we did not do that. I don't think any of the 10 of us really were really close to any of the others. And I'll let them go ahead and speak to it. - Well, you have to remember captain Kayshel that communication is much easier today than what it was then. I mean, if you made a long distance phone call. You waited till the weekend after 7:00 PM, when the rates went down. - Yeah. Cause it costs money, lots of money. - None of us were probably that rich. There wasn't an internet. The internet didn't really come into play until about the time most of us retired. So as Sandy said, "Yes." To go back it would have been delightful to have stayed in contact. But it would also have been extraordinarily difficult given the fact that we were all different time zones. Completely different missions. It would have just been difficult even in Air Training Command. Where I got to know a couple of the other female instructor pilots. Our communication was very, very limited. Because, communication was difficult. You just didn't pick up your cell phone and text somebody. - I sent a couple of letters. Cause I had Carol's address. But then once people left and got new assignments. There wasn't a phone number you could call them at. Cause people didn't have a cell, a number that stayed with you. So after the initial year. Maybe we didn't have any numbers to take with us. So it was a real effort to be able to do that. And, it's just the way life was. In just with the 10 of us. It was just the way that life was. And I think that that's probably, if there's anything that I could give a new officer coming into the Air Force. Or anyone just coming into a professional job of any source. Is to keep your friends. And to have those friends that you have professional. And have those friends that you have socially. And keep them. Because even after you have a family. My family is very, very important to me. But my family is not always gonna be there for everything. And I can expect them to be. My daughter right now is in the Air Force. And it was great. She got to come and to enjoy some of this. But, it was almost a fluke that she was able to do that. We had to work really hard to make it happen. And she's not able to do a lot of those things that maybe other people that were not in the Air Force, can have their kids. When I was growing up. My relatives, my cousins. We got together 10, 15, 20 times a summer. And then throughout the rest of the year. And that's not the way that the world is right now. So those things have changed. And, but it's still very important to, now that it is easier. Especially to go ahead and to make sure that you not only picked those people that you know that are with you. That are your peers. But also those that you may be able to mentor and bring up. I'll get off the subject here a little bit. Cause I'd love to hear from the rest of you. Cause we were talking about, at one point I was talking with my daughter about somebody was saying, "Well you got to have a mentor." "You need somebody to mentor you." Do you get that captain Kayshel? Do you have a mentor? And it's not about you finding a mentor. It's about you mentoring somebody else. And then your mentors will come along. And, it's about the job you get. It's about just your personality. All of those things go together. But, you just don't get to go out and say, "Oh, I need a mentor." "I'm gonna go pick one off the shelf." You work with people and then they go, "Hmm I think I'd like to work with this person." But the wonderful thing is you get to do the same thing to others. Whether they be a peer. Or whether they be someone that is maybe you outrank. Or even you can in some ways you can mentor even those that are superior to you. Just by letting them know how much you appreciate their qualities and their leadership. - I'd like to get on the mentoring thing. Real quick. I belong to a Women Military Aviators. And we're on Facebook. And we try to mentor just about anybody that has any questions. So I just spent 45 minutes the other day. Speaking to a young lady who's 27 years old. Who still wants to come into the military. And go to pilot training. And so I gave her several of the avenues. But back to one of the original questions there. I guess I felt a little strange being part of the 10. First of all, I was the second lieutenant. I had not been in the military before. I had just came straight out of ROTC. I was the youngest. And some of the girls were married, and older. And so, that kind of put them in a little bit different social category than I was in. So I tended to hang out with the people. Some of the gentlemen in the class ahead of me. Just cause I didn't want to hang out with the guys in our class. And so I had a different relationship there with the other ladies in our class. However, I think that I always tried to keep up with where everybody was stationed. And, kinda kept track of, what their careers were doing. How they were doing. What they were doing. To kind of try to keep in focused on what I was doing. I stayed at the same base for 25 years and the same airplane. Ended up in the 141. Flew the 141, A and B models. And ended up locking about 6,500 hours in the airplane. And having a a great bunch of guys that I worked with. But also when new women came along. I got to fly with them. And I was expected to mentor them and talk to them. And no matter whether or not they were on active duty or in the reserves. So that was kind of interesting from there, from that. As far as my relationship with the other ladies in the class. - I think some of the issues are the three young ladies with us today. We're in a different section from me. And they were so, a dichotomy. That you didn't really get to interact with the other five ladies that were in the other section. Because you were totally on different schedules the whole time. I bumped into Kathy LaSauce at Hondo, Texas, or Medina. Where we were staying. The day she got out of her car. We met in the parking lot. We'd been friends for the entire time. And the only other one I was probably close to would be Mary Livingston. Because, Mary was both at (mumbles) with me. And at the Air Force Academy. And once I went down in my little ACE program. And went into Columbus, and she was stationed at Columbus. See her involved at dinner. But other than that. We really didn't interact at all. Until probably recently. First thing for me would be that Women's International Conference, I went to. I don't know, it was about five years ago. 2016, yeah. To me, it was tremendous. Because it was inspiring. We were not mentored. We were just treated like, we're there. We have to be there. That we have to put up with us. And to see the mentoring that was going on at the conference. I found out at the conference, how much mentoring was going on among women. I found eye opening. And I was so thrilled about that. It just caught my attention so much. That there was tremendous mentoring going on. Cause a lot of times back in my day. Women were not good to women. They were almost like they felt they were competitive with them. So to see that happening. And in such a overwhelming amount of mentoring, so to speak. It just opened my eyes. So I was very thrilled about that. - Yeah. That was one thing, this Mary Livingston that we saw at Randolph this summer. We had a luncheon. And, was privileged to meet general Leavitt. And I don't know who Kathy met, and who Sandy met at their tables. But just listening to their life experiences. And there were other women at the table who were also excellent in their careers. Just listening to these women. And how they mentor other women. Just like Mary Donahue said. And how they have been mentored. What a sense of teamwork and kinship that the women have with each other. And, if we helped start that. Then "Yay us." Because that is, it's awesome to see women supporting one another. Because as Mary Donahue said. At some points in times, it did feel that we were more competing against one another. Because we were always being compared rather than helping one another. - I never, in my entire career flew with another woman. That I can remember. I could be wrong on that. I'm a little old now. And so, maybe don't have all the facts. But I can't remember ever flying with another woman as a pilot. I did have other crew members. I never had a female, boom operator. And I never had a female navigator. So on my crew in the tanker. I did not. When I got to the academy, and I flew the "de Havilland Twin Otter." I did not get to fly with another woman. Cause I was the only one. I did in a sailplane. But normally I don't even think I got to fly with a woman there. Because normally the women flew with other guys. Because they flew with the football players. Because the football players had to have somebody small. So that they could fit two people in the airplane. And, there weren't any other women when I got into the guard. So I never flew with another woman. But I did. And so my mentoring was not so much that. But maybe more of the enlisted. Because I did get to work with some of the enlisted women. And, also just mentoring the men at the same time. So I tried not to make that distinction. Because I didn't want to think of myself as a female pilot. I wanted to think of myself as a pilot. Because that's how I wanted other people to think of me. And, I think it will be absolutely wonderful that someday hopefully in the near future. That many of the accolades that we're now getting will be able to to go aside. It's kind of like, it's gonna take time. Yeah, it's been a long time already. It's probably gonna take more time. - Kathy Cosand here. Just to shout out to my daughter. Since this is Women's History Month. And talking about women pilots. Travis Air Force Base is sending out an all female crew this weekend. With my daughter as the air craft commander in C-5. And they're gonna go fly three flights with an all female crew. So, "yay" my daughter, Meaghan Camp. He's carrying it on for all of us. - That's so exciting to hear the transition between never really having any crew members that were female. To now doing the all female flight. And anyone that watched the Super Bowl. The same thing happened there. With the female flight commanders for the Super Bowl fly over this past year and everything. And Mary L. you brought up general Leavitt. And I actually shared with you guys recently this photo here at Randolph in front of the Taj Mahal. That's pretty iconic of Randolph Air Force Base. And it's a picture of six female general officers who all were in Air Education and Training Command right now. And, in a time when you guys were doing what you were doing and paving the way. You weren't really looking up to female officers and general officers women that you could see them. So you could see yourself getting to that stage. For people like myself and other, whether you're in the Air Force or maybe wanna get recruited whatever it is. I guess to you guys, what did that picture of six general officers all standing together in that iconic shot by the Taj here in one merge of the air force. Making ways with two major three-star generals and four brigadier generals. That kind of just are paving the way. And doing the work. And continuing you guys legacy, and that mentorship. And yeah, I just was curious what that might've inspired in you when you saw it? - Mary Livingston. One of the things, and Sandy Scott and Mary Donahue. They were stationed at the Air Force Academy. So they may have had this opportunity as well. But at various times. The WASPs would come and visit the Air Force Academy. Sandy, Mary Donahue. Did you ever get a chance to meet any of the women pilots of World War II? - I did get to meet one of the WASP. The female person that I made the most I guess, impact upon me. Was Grace Hopper, however. She just blew me away. And she was a Naval communicator. And, she was an excellent speaker. And she was in her 80s. When she actually came to the Air Force Academy. So I remember that more so than, I did get to meet the WASP at several different times. But not just a kind of like "hi and the bye" type thing. - Well I actually, my husband and I were privileged to host a couple at our house one evening. - Oh, wow. - Interesting because, just recently on the National Museum of the Air Force. I think, is the one they had a feature on an Asian woman pilot. And I was looking at that. And I remember one of those WASP telling me a story. That this, one of their fellow pilots who was happened to be Asian-American. Had engine trouble. And had to do a forced landing in a farmer's field. Well, the farmer sees this Asian looking woman coming out of the aircraft. And immediately thinking that he's being attacked. This is during World War II. So he basically captures her, until she is able to convince him that she is a woman pilot in the Air Force. Which of course, the Army Air Corps, which of course, he didn't know much about. So I'm thinking, I'm looking at that picture, captain Trudell. Of these women general officers. And this is just AETC. Standing in front of the Taj Mahal. And I'm thinking back to this woman who's standing in a field. Not even being able to convince somebody that she is part even though she wasn't part of the official military organization. She was affiliated with the military. What an incredible transformation. There has been over the last 80 years. - Yeah. There was at one point when the academy, when I was there. That they were looking at getting ultralights as part of their program. And, they had several different ultralight companies come in. And I was there as the executive officer from down on the flight field. But, we all had on sweaters. We weren't wearing, wet sweaters or jackets. And somebody had said, "Well Sandy, why didn't you take this one up?" And I said, "I'd like to do that." And the guy looked at me. He knew. But because my boss had said, she's a pilot. But the guy that comes running over that had built this ultralight. He's going, "What's she doing taking my airplane?" "What is she doing taking my ultra light up?" I told her, "55 stay alive." It's okay." And this guy was concerned the whole time. Cause he had no idea that I was a pilot. And this was after we'd gone through and all that other kind of stuff. And so he's just, he's gone, "Oh, Oh, I didn't know." And so he just made the assumption that they've just let me go out and (mumbles). "But she took off." "She took off." - I like the fact that, with the generals that when you think about the leadership being the top 2 percent. Is how many women are the top 2 percent. Even though they only comprised 20% of the Air Force. So that picture of the six ladies standing there kind of went, to me went. we've got some great people representing women in the Air Force. - One of the things that I noticed, they were half I believe. Half of them were (mumbles), and half of them weren't. Which was also, it used to be. "Why I only got to be a general if you were a pilot." And I think that the Air Force has changed in that way also. So that yes, it is important. Flying is our mission. But it takes all fields to go ahead to accomplish that mission. - So a lot of you had time at the academy. What was that like? I mean the academy obviously wasn't always even accepting of women as students. So what were some experiences there? - Well, I didn't have any experience at the Air Force Academy. But just to put things in perspective. The women started becoming to depths of the Air Force Academy at the same time that we started pilot training in the summer and fall of 1976. So it was also new to the academy. Like I get a lot of questions like, "Well why didn't you go to the academy?" And I said, "Well because they didn't have women at the academy until 1976." And that's when I started pilot training. So I'll stay out of this now. Because I didn't have those other experiences. - This is Mary Donahue. I was assigned to the academy twice. I had got assigned to the academy to be in the mathematics department in June of 76. And, then I was accepted for pilot training. So I had a 54 day assignment at the academy. And we had, I taught calculus. Which every cadet has to have calculus. So we had actually by the time I left in early August. I guess it was early August. We had had our first exam. And they give the same exam to every cadet. And, they were all graded by the instructors. And an instructor grades, just one problem. So everybody's problem is related exactly the same. And so before I left, I tend to leave every job late. I put on the board after we had done all the things. I said, "Just wanted you guys to notice that three of the top five scores in this calculus exam were women." I just put an exclamation point. That's the last time they saw it. Because I had left over that weekend to go to pilot training. So the first women as cadets had a lot of problems. But they were very strong. And they were good. And they needed to be there. So, I thought it was a good experience. When I came back, and that was 76. When I came back to the academy in 81. Five years later. I mean there were a lot more of females there than they were a lot more accepted. - Mary Livingston. I taught in the department of economics and flew, attached in the motorized glider. The TG-7A. And, also flew the 2-33, the sail plane. So I identify with Sandy in the fact that they wanted somebody lightweight to fly with the football players. And, cause of the weight limitations. And the same thing was true in the motorized glider. And by that time, we had had an assignment underneath our experience. And I was actually on my third assignment. Cause I had been an instructor at Columbus Air Force Base. Then a pilot instructor at Randolph Air Force Base. And then joined my husband at the Air Force Academy, teaching economics. And then I did have a second assignment there with the T-41. Which was the flight screening aircraft as my primary assignment. And, as Kathy Cosand just mentioned. It was getting to be much more accepted as you went further in your career. And particularly in the training command. Because that's where women join. And the same thing true with the Air Force Academy. They were used to seeing young women there. So in that respect I admire Mary Donahue, and Kathy Cosand and Sandy. Because they didn't have that same influx of young women in all the different career fields. So in Air Education and Training Command you did see more young women. And so I think it became much more acceptable than maybe in some of the other commands. - I was gonna say that when I was at the academy. And this is getting off on a different subject. So if anybody else wants to go with this one, please finish first. One of the things when I was there at the academy. Was just looking at the issue of the limitations that women have when they become a mother. And, the foresight and professionalism. That the commander that I had shown. Cause I had hired one of the other females. It was the first time she was gonna be coming into the unit. And she showed up quite scared. I believe I have never talked to her about that yet. But, she said I gotta see the commander. And I was her sponsor. And I said, "Okay, is everything all right? And she goes, "Yeah." And I said, "You're pregnant." She goes, "Yeah, I am." And I said, "Okay, it's gonna be okay." As I immediately started thinking about now camp flyer how are we gonna to do this? But I said, "It's gonna be okay." Because I had been thinking about that. I had been married that time about 13 years. And I wanted to start a family. And those were the issues that I knew were alive and well out there. And my commander just did the most fabulous job that he could have. He introduced her the next day to the rest of the unit. And he said, "I'd like y'all to meet captain so-and-so." "And she's got some pretty good news for us." "She's gonna be a mother." And it's no different than when Ray broke his leg and was (mumbles) for nine months. And that was the end of the issue. And there was just like, "Nope, nothing else." Everything else just kind of float as it was. Because it had been put in a perspective that was different than you're not going to be able to work. It was a lot of people can't work. Than if happens. And, it's not just a pregnancy. So that was totally different. Than happened to me later when I did get pregnant. But it was so comforting. And, I just like to really thank colonel Shaw for the fantastic way that he handled the situation. And, I think showed a lot of other people. Because I'm sure that most of the men that time, we never know who we affect. But, I'm sure that every other man that was in our unit at that time. There wasn't an issue. It just became part of the job. - Speaking of pregnancy and everything. The first time I got pregnant, about seven weeks later. I had to take my cholera shot. And I did not want to take a live serums shot. And so I went in into the flight surgeon. And he grounded me immediately. And I was not a happy camper. My second pregnancy though, in 1987. I was at Altus. And there was a young flight surgeon, very progressive. And I went to him. And they had just allowed the application for waivers. And so I said, "I wanna get a waiver to fly." And he said, "Why do you wanna do that?" And I looked at him and I said, "Am I sick?" I said, "I'm still cleaning toilets." "I'm still mowing the yard." "Why can't I fly airplanes?" And he said, "Right answer." And he goes, "Okay, let's try to get this done." And so he helped me with the paperwork. And, before we knew it. The waiver went up to whatever headquarters it needed to go up to. And I got the first waiver to continue to fly pregnant 24 weeks. So I continued until the 17th of January of 1988 to fly. I flew my last local. And, my wing commander was kind of against it. But he was kind of a portly man. And he goes, "Well how is she gonna, handle the yolk?" And I kinda went, "Geez, he's in a size 52 flight suit." "I'm only in a 42." "Who do you think can pull the yolk back further?" But, I didn't say that to him. But I kind of said it to myself. And the guys in my unit were great. They were very supportive. I couldn't fly overseas. But I could stay stateside and I could fly. I could go on the simulator. And I could keep my landing currency up to that point. Which to me made my re-qualification after I had my daughter. So much better, so much quicker. Because I haven't lost some of the thought process and everything. And that would require nine months of being grounded along with the six week recovery period after C-sections. So that went a lot quicker. And I know, a lot of other people. They just kind of hid their pregnancies. But I decided that I wanted to go forth with the paperwork so that if other people wanted to do it. It was already established. And it was already, had already been done at least once. So that's why I kind of wanted to do it. - Mary Livingston here. I will say that Air Education and Training Command hadn't heard of you when I was pregnant. That's all I gotta say. (all laugh) - Well, that said. It sounds like a lot of you with kiddos out there stayed "Air Force centric." I know Kathy, your daughter's a pilot. But who else has more flying or Air Force or military blood that follows suit with you? - Well, I also have a son who spent 10 years in the Air Force reserves also. So he was a KC-135 pilot at Grissom, just like Mary and Mary. So, he got out after his 10 years. And he's now flying for American Airlines. And I got a new grand baby on the way with him in May. And he actually met a girl on one of his air vac trips from Minneapolis. And she latched on to him. And they got married, and now expecting their first. So two out of two. They both flew. - My daughter's an active duty officer right now. Who hopes to make it a career. She's presently stationed at the Pentagon. Her and her husband are both in logistics. And they're gonna be heading to Korea this year. - And I just met them, and they are really neat. - So is your daughter. And yours Mary. Yours too. It was really great to have some of our kids at some of these events. It made it very special. So I really was very glad that that was able to happen. - What was the experience like, put that white suit on again? When you came here for the building or the room dedication? - Awesome. - I was just impressed that I could fit in my old flight suit. - It was, it was definitely a moment to just remember. It was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm here." And, it was definitely, definitely, definitely worth it. I'm so sorry that Mary didn't get to come up and fly with us. But it was great to have her there. And, yeah. So it was a thrill of a lifetime. - Mary Livingston here. Just being back at Randolph Air Space. Where I was stationed for a couple of years. Walking to the same building. Walking from the 557th. When which is where I flew the T-37s. And just walking the base. The same steps I have walked on years earlier with my husband and daughter. Was just an absolute thrill. And, I just have to do a shout out to the whole Public Affairs Office. What a tremendous job you all did in organizing that and running it. It was perfection at least from this person's point of view. Thank you. - Awesome. - Go ahead. - I was just gonna say that's what matters. You guys were the guests. - You did a great job. - I think, I would like to just take a brief moment to also as I had said earlier. That being one of the first females was not something that was big to me. I just finished reading a book. Some of you may have seen the movie "Hidden Figures." And we were, and I accept that people have looked up to us and I'm very grateful that they were able to do that. And that they are able to do that. But I think about the people like my mom. And the mothers that in a totally different world did the best that they could do. And then such as the women that came into the space program and not only had to put up with not being able. I totally think that that's one of the best parts of the whole movie. Is when she has to run to find a bathroom. But it's not because because I can relate to it. But not because she was a female. So much it's just because she was black, and a female. And, I just can't wait until the day when those different discriminating factors don't make any difference. - Yes. That's something that's super important to our web, and all of our top leaders and Department of Defense right now. And, just been really amazing to be part of the generation that wants to make that change. And it took the men and women that came before us. And what you guys have done to continue to make that positive growth. So thank you for being that initial steps for all of us ladies. And before I go ahead and don't take any more of your time. Any final words you might have to someone considering a life of flying or a life in the Air Force or no matter what it is. A young lady that wants to do something that might not be seen as something that a woman would be doing. What would you guys like to say as your final remarks to those aspiring people. - Follow your dreams. - They can do anything that they want to do if they put their mind to it. And they just have to wanna do it. Even if they have to put up with a few rough edges cause even though systemically it may not be a problem at this point in time. You still have individuals that are whatever they are. So just put up with what you need to put up with. And don't let that take away from your dream of doing what you wanna do. Cause there's so many opportunities that are open to women today. - I have to say, just be disciplined. Because, we were probably all our worst enemies as happens with any time. If there were those days that we just weren't sure we'd have to kick ourselves. And so to have that faith in ourselves. That we could do what we needed to do to get the job done. - And I would agree totally with what everybody else said and to go along with that. Maintain your sense of humor. And the other thing is. Men are also going through challenges as well. So being part of a team is critically important. - And if you have any doubts whatsoever. Please get in contact with any of us. And we would love to talk to you. And try to encourage you. And hope that you can achieve your dreams. - Yes. - Amen. - Yep. - Okay. Concluded any better than that. It's that wingmanship, mentorship culture of this big Air Force family. So thank you so much ladies for your time. And being here for us today on this podcast episode. - You're welcome. - Yes, thank you. (upbeat music) - We hope you enjoyed this Women's History Month edition of "The Air Force starts Here" Podcast. Thank you for your subscribed streamer download. As a reminder you can follow Air Education and Training commands. And the ATC Command team on social media. We're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, YouTube and LinkedIn. You can catch up on all the latest news across the command on our website at atc.af.mil. From our entire ATC Public Affairs Team. I'm captain Kayshel Trudell. Talk with you next time on "The Air Force Starts Here" Podcast. (upbeat music)